"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those WHO ARE PERISHING, but to those who are being saved it is the power of God"
1 Corinthians 1:18
Is that you above - is the cross foolishness?? How I pity you - how do you feel knowing that if you died now you would be awaiting pain for all eternity!
How does that make you feel? Not necessarily in flames as traditionally portrayed but with things like sulphur burning in your bones, people without mercy ripping off your skin, people without law skewering you with hot metal and you can't die any more - you cant run or hide - you just have to put up with it - FOREVER!!
Have you ever made fun of a Christian? Why? Do you think it's foolish what they believe? Read the verse above again! Do you think it's foolish what they believe I ask again? If you answered yes - then how do you feel?
THERE IS A WAY OUT!!
Have you heard of John 3:16 - say it to yourself! Do you know the verses that come after it? Verse 17 & 18 says;
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to SAVE the world through Him. Whoever believes in in Him is NOT CONDEMNED
but whoever DOES NOT believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the Name of God's one and only Son"
Hallelujah! It's Jesus or Hell! Believe it!
12 comments:
So God has allowed billions of people to be born into existence on this earth, knowing full well that He is going to send the majority of them to a place of eternal pain and anguish based upon whether they have asked Jesus to be their personal saviour during this short time on earth.Based on what you say here, I hope if you are ever in the position of attending the funeral of say a 15 year old who attended your youth group but was still figuring out this 'God stuff' and hadn't said a prayer of repentance before they died, that you have the guts to say to their family "sorry but your child is now in hell being skewered with hot metal and having their skin ripped off, and this is going to continue forever. But have a nice day, and remember - God loves you".
Who am I to say where he has gone? I'm not here to judge, only to point in the right direction!
I have actually had the funeral of one of our 15 year old youth group members only 2 months ago!! All I know is that God is a loving God and if this young boy hadn't 'repented' of all his sins but was well on the way to salvation - who says God hasn't welcomed him home? It's not up to me to guess how God judged him, so why would I tell his parents news as terrible as that when I don't know how his soul was in his last few days/minutes?!
Did you forget the part - there is a way out? As long as you read that.
Your fate is in your hands - so how's your soul?
Your reply displays the weaknesses in those that love to preach about an eternal torturous punishment for all those who do not accept Jesus as their saviour. As soon as anyone says to you "so does that mean that (insert name of deceased relative/friend) is now being eternally tortured?", you suddenly turn from your hardline heaven or hell approach to a wishy washy "I don't know how their soul was" one. What does "well on his way to salvation" mean anyway? Seems like another way to excuse yourself from having to believe that he is in hell (according to your beliefs). If you really believe things are as black and white as you state, then you should be bold enough tell people that you believe that (insert name) is almost certainly in hell being tortured forever, and that is the fate that will come upon them if they don't repent. Perhaps things aren't quite as black and white as believe = eternal bliss, don't believe = eternal torture. Does it honestly make sense to have a God who loves everyone, but is willing to allow people to be punished eternally based upon this tiny amount of time we spend alive on earth?
firstly anonymous, I am sick and tired of people who disagree never giving their name. Its so immature and the only possible reason i can think you wouldnt say anything is because you are hiding something. If you believe this so strongly then have the guts to stick your name up.
secondly, you only speak of God as love. God is love. Hallelujah! He is also just. He is also holy. Having a God who sends everyone to heaven is not a just God. It is not a Holy God.
God is holy and just because He is love. Im sure if you were raped by someone you would want justice, what if the judge in court simply blew it off because he loves the person... im sure you wouldnt be happy then! You would want justice! If there is no hell where is the justice?
SIn is bad. Our world tells us it isnt that bad. Jesus said if we cause someone to sin we should be tied down with rocks and thrown in the sea! Holiness means pure, set apart etc, how can God be holy if He allows sin???
Ive heard it say that our parents are the best example of Gods love for us. I know for sure that my parents have punished me, they hurt me, but they did it out of love. My actions have consequences. In the end it was my fault though! I deserved the punishment!
The sad thing I believe is that we are letting so many people go to hell without atleast hearing the gospel preached well! With both words and actions! The gospel is grace. You would be stupid to not believe it and take it on board!
If people were stuck in a prison today and someone let them go they would be stupid to stay where they are. Thats the message of the gospel! God loves us so much all we need to do is accept His grace! We need to walk out of the prison.
With my beliefs it places a huge responsibility on believers to share the gospel. And I do. And I see people saved regularly.
In the end, we dont judge anyways. So, I make sure people are going to heaven by getting them saved because the BIBLE says the only way we can be saved is through faith in Jesus.
Where is your authority to say that it is not black and white?
I speak with no authority James, I'm just asking questions and seeking answers, and trying to get people to think. The main difficulty I have with the concept of hell is the eternal part - you speak about a parent punishing a child or someone being put in jail as a means of applying justice. These are temporary punishments, not eternal ones. Please re-read my last question and see if you can answer it honestly.
As for being anonymous, I want you to take my comments on face value and not through the lens of who I am. You're sick and tired of people like me - I'm sick and tired of the self-righteous who condemn anyone who doesn't agree with their own narrow viewpoint.
Today we live in a society that is well educated - because of this people have become too proud in themselves and have become ingorant in anything that goes against being self sufficient and hence belive they don't need a 'god' in anyform except themselves.
Pride is a killer - you're educated self-sufficeint pride blinds you to your mortal-ness, you are going to die and you WILL go to heaven or the other place!! You have heard of Jesus - the balls in your court - accept or reject it.
It is not a 'weakness' to change our message once the person is dead about eternal torture - the decisions you make in your life determines what happens after you're dead - once someones dead, that's it! You can't change their fate - they are or aren't in Heaven - fullstop - no more can be done - we can not say anything to change it - why be negative! We live in hope through the grace given freely to us - if we accept.
Make sure you make a decision out of wisdom, not pride.
"Does it honestly make sense to have a God who loves everyone, but is willing to allow people to be punished eternally based upon this tiny amount of time we spend alive on earth?"
"God wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" 1 Timothy2:4 So the problem is not God its sin...
"the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ." Romans 6:23 so sin is bad, very bad.
"tiny amount of time we spend alive on earth?" Perhaps this tiny amount of time on Earth is a gift from God. The angels dont even get this! (Hebrews) The gift of life is amazing and with great privledge comes great responsibilities. If we have life on Earth we have responibility for our soul...
thats how I would answer it... I lift God up as holy, sin as bad, lift life up as a privledge with responsilities...
and about your identity, get real! Your not doing the arguement any good, youre actually continiuing the stereotype of liberal theologians as people without integrity. Stand up for what you believe in, put your neck on the line and we will respect you more and it will be easier to learn together.
James it's the eternal part I struggle with - punishment may be justified, but eternal torture based upon whether we accept Jesus or not during our time on earth doesn't seem fair or just.
As to my continued anonymity, you mention a stereotype of a 'liberal theologian', to which I would reply that you and Simon would appear to be sterotypical conservative evangelicals who act aggressively towards anyone with an alternate viewpoint. Making my identity known would only allow you and your type (yes I'm stereotyping) to attack me personally and judge me as some type of heretic for daring to question traditional Christian and Salvo thought and belief.
Hey Anon - if I can call you that!
We don't mean to come across as aggressive, but it's because of the eternal bit that goes hand in hand with the small amount of time that effects the eternal bit - so much to do in so little time!! Its more a sence of urgency rather than aggressiveness.
Know that there are many people that still don't know about Jesus, we need to at least give them the option to chose or reject it for themselves - if we were wrong (which im 250% sure we're not) I'd rather have had the option to have at least accepted it than not heard it at all - does that sit ok with you, Anon?
There's 2 ways to go about it - let people God is love which gives people a sense of calmness but drags out of making a commitment to accepting Jesus as God's love and eternal life thinking that if God is love - He'll wait forever - which ends up becoming too late if you wait for a death bed conversion for most... or if you point out the alternative, that puts more a sence of urgency on it!
Urgency - not aggression - sorry if that puts pressure on you to make a decision!
eternity does seem harsh to me aswell, but the answer to that I see in the seriousness of sin... check out some of the stuff Jesus mentions about sin, He seems to be pretty harsh on it... And also old Testament, read the laws etc...
Im interested what you mean by us being aggressive towards people with a differernt point of view... How do you see that? Is it by us justifying our beliefs and using lots of different arguements? I am keen to know... please help us help you and others like you...
just a thought, if someone simply went up to a policemen and said "terrorists are going to bomb the apec stuff this week" what would the police do? Probably not much if they had no evidence... But if someone came up with evidence, urgency and pure motives then the police would take them more seriously...
When there is evidence people take stuff more seriously. We have lots of it with our theology. And because of that we get a real sense of urgency. So we are aggressive. just like we would be if we knew someone was to blow up a building, we would be aggressive in trying to alert the right people to stop it...
We see people touched by Jesus Christ every week. i see a God that loves people and changes peoples lives. Its urgent for now and for the future. Jesus came for both now and forever. And so it is urgent... accept the grace of God is what i preach in the way i live my life.
an arguement based solely on reason wont win here. We have too much authority in other sources... Hopefuly that might help you understand where i am coming from...
how does that sit with you?
I read this comment on another blog/forum from an athiest that immediately made me think of this post and our subsequent discussions. This is what someone in the world thinks about Christians, and it fits quite a bit with how I have perceived your attitudes- how does this sit with you guys?
"Underneath the average friendly Christian lies the attitude, that in the end the Christian will enjoy eternal bliss whilst the object of their preaching will suffer forever.
I can understand, you only need to exercise the fruits of the Spirit for a lifetime. Between cups of tea and cake at the Church lunches.
Won’t it be a relief when you get to heaven. Jesus stops being the humble servant and becomes the all-conquering judge of the world. God stops loving people as He gleefully flings them into the lake of fire. And Christians can drop the strained smile, the overly fake persona of love. Oh what a blessed relief to be finished with all that shit. Forever."
The link for these comments is http://signposts2.wordpress.com/2007/08/30/divorcing-for-the-2nd-time-evangelist-paula-whites-guide-to-being-a-total-bitch/#comment-745
It's a bit of an 'out there' forum which has many comments and opinions that you will no doubt find offensive, so I would tread carefully in there.
the above statement assumes that we don't really love and that it is fake. come ask the people we work with if we're faking love to them or not and you will see that even though we believe in hell we still love alot of people alot!
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